David

More About Dan

Wisconsin native. Seasoned Systems Architect. Developer. Car guy.

These are just a few of the terms one might use to describe Dan, who joined the FYIN team in 2018. Dan brings with him a wealth of experience in development, problem-solving, systems integration, and architecture planning and implementation. He prides himself on having the ability to view a technical challenge from many angles and finding the most efficient path to get from where you are to where you want to be.

Dan lives in Mukwonago, a suburb of Milwaukee, with his family. He and his wife are the proud parents of a son and daughter, both of whom are in college.

When he can peel himself away from his keyboard, Dan enjoys motorsports and motorsports engineering. Like many developers, he likes to know how things work - and that includes engines.

In addition to motorsports, Dan also enjoys travel, photography, boating, and downhill skiing.

Random fact: Dan’s favorite palindrome is RACECAR.

More About Chris

Chris is an Umbraco MVP and Umbraco Certified Master with a passion for technology, creativity, and - most importantly - people. A natural problem-solver and curious thinker, Chris loves coming up with ideas, taking things apart to understand how they work, and drawing on his many years of experience to find creative solutions. He was an early adopter of AI and continues to leverage it in both large and small ways. 

Chris studied Electronics and Communications at the University of Plymouth in the UK. His early career included working for an online bookseller that aimed to compete with Amazon, where he developed an algorithm to recommend books to customers - an early glimpse of his knack for combining technology and creativity.

Technology wasn't always the plan, though. As a child, Chris dreamed of becoming an architect and later considered designing microchips. His curiosity and love of figuring out how things work ultimately led him into the world of technology and web development.

Outside of work, Chris is a devoted husband and dad to two busy children. Whatever activity they choose (competitive cheer, anyone?), he’s there to cheer them on (and to serve as a chauffeur, too!). 

Chris is very musical and once taught swing dance lessons, which is where he met his wife. In addition to being an avid dancer, he’s also been known to pick up the trumpet. When he lived in the UK, he sang in BBC Proms concerts - a prestigious annual festival.   

Chris has a wide range of interests, including bread baking, cycling, skiing, music, books, and movies. As an Umbraco developer and active member of the community, Chris is a familiar face at Umbraco events around the globe. He’s hard to miss because he wears patterned shirts that are certainly … memorable. 

Some of Chris's favorite adventures have included traveling through Hawaii and touring France. Whether he's exploring a new place, learning how something works, baking bread, or tackling a new technical challenge, curiosity is never far away.

Fun fact: Chris once took apart a record player simply because he wanted to understand how it worked. That curiosity still defines him today.

More About Claudia

Claudia tends to straddle two worlds. She’s an introvert who enjoys people. She’s an English Major who has a deep appreciation for technology. After 25+ years in the IT industry, she feels right at home here at FYIN. She takes advantage of her years of experience working in the Umbraco CMS by serving as a Partner Advocate. Claudia’s role involves project coordination and scheduling (AKA “herding the cats”), as well as working with our client partners to ensure that their needs are met. She's also our KB (KnowledgeBase) whiz and usually has an outrageous number of browser tabs open at any given time. 

Originally from Northern Virginia, Claudia has resided in Green Bay, Wisconsin for over 25 years. When she’s not working, she enjoys practicing yoga, writing, walking her dogs, conquering jigsaw puzzles, and taking on home improvement projects that make her husband nervous. She also loves the ocean and hopes to live closer to one someday. Claudia has one daughter, a musical theatre kid who's away at college. She admits to being a “crazy dog lady” and has spent the last two decades volunteering for rescues and shelters.

All-time favorite song: “Every Little Thing She Does is Magic” by The Police. It’s a big enough umbrella!

More About Scott

Umbraco Master: Almost as cool as a Dungeon Master, but infinitely more useful to our client partners. Scott, a member of the FYIN team for over eight years, wears the Umbraco Master title with pride and has achieved every certification that Umbraco offers. Give him a technical challenge and he’ll master it. Scott wears lots of hats. He deftly handles all forms of development including front-end, back-end, and server architecture. You’ll even find him running our laser engraving machine. Scott is not someone we hide in a back room so that he can write code all day; he interfaces directly with our client-partners and shares his expertise firsthand.

Originally from the Milwaukee suburbs, Scott took a leap of faith and moved to Denver several years ago. Colorado’s better-than-Wisconsin weather means that he can get outdoors more often, riding his motorcycle and playing disc golf (but not typically at the same time). While the motorcycle might lead you to believe that he’s the rebellious sort, Scott admits to a pet peeve that paints a slightly different picture: he hates messy code.

Something people are surprised to learn: Scott sports several tattoos and piercings and has been known to sit still for up to 11 hours for a tattoo session.

LEARN MORE ABOUT SCOTT

More About Hyon

Hyon ("rhymes with neon") joined the FYIN team as a .NET Developer in 2019. Hyon was born in Korea but has spent most of his life in Colorado. He emigrated to the US in 1984, when he was but a wee lad. He later earned a B.S. in Math from Colorado School of Mines in Golden.

Hyon brings many technical strengths to our team. He has a solid background in C# and the Microsoft Web stack. He holds a certification in Microsoft Certified Solutions Associate for Web Applications.  

The best developers are self-motivated, curious, and never satisfied with “good enough.” Hyon fits the bill on all of those qualities. He doesn’t consider the task done until it’s something he can be proud of. Hyon is methodical and focused, but isn’t afraid to have a little fun at the same time. He is generally a positive thinker and a friendly soul, but do not get him started on improper turn signal usage.

Like many Coloradans, he enjoys outdoorsy activities like mountain biking. He also indulges his creative side through photography. Of course, as a parent, Hyon directs some of his excess energy into chasing his kids. He enjoys sharing his Korean heritage with his children and often rings in each New Year with traditional Korean food.

Random fact: If you’re also a bike nerd, you may be impressed to know that he has been known to pedal up Lookout Mountain in under 26 minutes.

More About Cassio

Cássio hails from Brazil. He considers São Sepé to be his hometown, but he has also lived in Porto Alegre. Cássio enjoys traveling and has journeyed as far as Patagonia in the far southern reaches of South America (basically, the last stop before Antarctica). 

Like many members of the FYIN team, Cássio holds several Umbraco certifications. He earned an undergraduate degree in Information Systems and a Masters in Engineering from Universidade Luterana do Brasil. His list of technical skills is extraordinarily long and includes everything from .NET to C# to Raspberry Pi. One noteworthy accomplishment: upon the conclusion of his IT studies in Brazil, he created a smart home application and presented it on national television.

Cássio’s hobbies include building electronics, watching Netflix, playing sports, and making music. He prides himself on being detail-oriented and having a strong focus on excellence. His innate curiosity means that he is always researching new technologies and finding new fields to explore.

Something people are surprised to learn: Because Cássio tends to have a laid-back demeanor, it may come as a surprise to know that he is a martial arts expert and practices Tae Kwon Do.

More About RJ

Unlike many Coloradans, RJ does not ski, snowboard, or bike through the mountains. When the authorities find out, he’ll likely be escorted to the Rockies and told not to come back until he develops an appreciation for the great outdoors. In the meantime, RJ enjoys playing retro video games like Super Mario World. He’s also an enthusiastic fan of stand-up comedy. Lewis Black and Eddie Izzard are among his favorite comedians. 

RJ is a certified nopCommerce developer; achieving that certification was no small feat! RJ is FYIN’s Director of eCommerce but is in no way limited to eCommerce work. He’s a well-rounded full-stack developer who can take on virtually any challenge. RJ prides himself on his ability to dig into code, identify issues or inefficiencies, and relay that information in a way that makes sense even to non-technical folks. He also enjoys mentoring junior developers. 

RJ grew up knowing that he wanted to be a developer and wrote his first program at just 13 years of age. He later studied Computer Science in college. Originally from South Dakota, RJ grew up in a military family and moved around quite a bit before settling in the Denver area in 2008. He is the proud dad of three children (one grown and two youngsters). RJ describes himself as funny, calm, and understanding, traits that surely come in handy when raising children. 

Random fact: RJ is known as a “hat guy” and has an impressive collection of headgear. His co-workers are waiting to see if he shows up in a stovepipe hat a la Abraham Lincoln. 

More About John

A whip-smart MBA who grew up on a farm and knows his way around heavy machinery? Yes, such a person exists and his name is John. John joins the FYIN team as a Project Manager, bringing his wide-ranging skills to our growing list of projects and engagements. John has a strong track record of leading projects from inception through completion, earning the praise of co-workers and clients alike. He excels at driving processes that lead straight to success.  

John grew up in the Green Bay, Wisconsin area. And yes, he is a loyal Packers fan, as per the requirement for all Wisconsinites. His years on the farm taught him how to fix stuff, as well as the importance of having a strong work ethic. After high school, John set out to study aerospace engineering in college. Eventually, he changed course a bit and received his undergraduate degree in mechanical engineering. Later, he earned an MBA from Marquette University in Milwaukee. Before long, he was making his mark at some of the biggest manufacturers in the Milwaukee area, gaining experience in various engineering and project management roles. 

Unable to resist the siren call of Green Bay, John eventually returned to his roots. Today, he and his wife Tiffany have two young children, a boy and a girl. John is Tiffany’s number one fan and says that she is truly an exceptional wife, mother, and all-around amazing person. 

John describes himself as easygoing, open-minded, and loyal. He’s data-driven and process-oriented, but he’s no stick in the mud. John enjoys traveling, boating, and whatever adventures may come his way. His handyman skills continue to come in, well, handy. He owns a few properties and of course, there is always something to be fixed. 

Random fact: John has been known to use his highly limited free time to whip up gourmet cheesecakes. His dog is not allowed to partake but remains ever hopeful that some tidbit may hit the floor. 

More About Kristin

FYIN needed a creative person who understands web development, and we found her! Kristin is a Colorado native who considers herself to be a lifelong learner. She earned a BS in Advertising from the University of Colorado at Boulder and rounded out her education by delving into coding on her own. In addition to her impressive design portfolio, Kristin brings to the table strong skills in HTML/CSS, Javascript, WordPress, and of course the full Adobe Creative Suite. She has also been initiated into the Umbraco universe and picked it up in no time. 

Kristin describes herself as conscientious, detail-oriented, curious, and thorough. She enjoys DIY projects, photography, and water sports like wakeboarding. She has family in Hawaii and spent time there growing up, which is where she developed a love for the water. Kristin carries the spirit of Aloha with her wherever she goes by reflecting compassion, hope, and empathy in every interaction.  

When she’s not flexing her design and development skills, Kristin enjoys true crime documentaries, puzzles, and trivia. She loves to explore design trends, particularly as they relate to sustainability and eco-friendliness. She recently bought her first house (woohoo!) and is enjoying all the little projects that come with it.

Random Fact: Kristin wants nothing to do with ketchup (and no, spelling it catsup won’t make it any more appealing to her). Other condiments are fine, but ketchup? No.

More About Tony

He’s fit, he’s an accomplished photographer, and he knows fancy words like al dente, compote, and canape. But wait, there’s more! Tony is also an SEO expert, which is an in-demand skill in today’s data-driven world. He’s a knowledgeable and energetic addition to the Click Mentality team and does a great job of explaining SEO strategies in a way that non-experts can understand. Tony prides himself on being able to communicate with different types of people in a team environment. 

He started his education in microbiology, took a break, and later attended the Art Institute of Colorado, which gave him an opportunity to explore his love of art, painting, and graphic design. Tony also had a keen interest in technology and website development. As the SEO field began to form, Tony jumped right in, learning all the ins and outs of search engines and how to drive targeted traffic in all the right directions. 

Tony has two adult children, a son and a daughter. When asked about his proudest accomplishment, his children come first. He’s also proud of participating in a cycling fundraiser that found him crossing the entire state in two days. In addition to cycling, Tony also enjoys weightlifting (he used to compete in CrossFit), hiking, and longboarding. Now, back to those fancy words: Tony is a gourmet cook and enjoys the challenge of mastering new dishes. Photography is one of his other great passions. He found a niche in sports and fitness photography, even booking some commercial clients. 

Random fact: While most people would agree that how you pronounce the word “caramel” depends largely on regional differences, Tony would like you to know that there is only one pronunciation: care-ah-mel. There will be no further debate. 

More About Jordan

Meet Jordan! He's a creative problem solver with a particular affinity for the 4th of July. When asked to describe himself, Jordan sometimes adds “tired” to the list of adjectives. He is, after all, a busy dad to two tween girls (and no, he seldom gets an adequate amount of hot water for his showers). Jordan is married to his college sweetheart; the two girls are joined by one well-loved dog. 

Jordan grew up in Kentucky and often finds himself missing the beauty of the Bluegrass State. His career began in radio with an emphasis on music management. Jordan holds a BA in Music Industry (with an emphasis on the performance/business side of music) and an MS in Entertainment Business. He’s comfortable on stage in front of a crowd but also enjoys the behind-the-curtain aspect of entertainment. 

A decade ago, Jordan moved to Colorado and has come to appreciate the beauty of the Rockies (a close second to Kentucky!). His career expanded into project management, which was a natural fit for Jordan’s problem-solving and communication skills. Like many PMs, he tends to be a jack of all trades and will happily tackle anything from content to web updates. He also provides himself on being flexible and passionate, which are attributes that serve him well in our fast-changing industry. 

Random Fact: Jordan earned the distinction of being an Eagle Scout at the very young age of 14. His final project was to build housing for a humane society as well as collecting food for the furry residents of the shelter.

More About Brett

Meet Brett, a skilled software developer, Packers fanatic (he’s even a shareholder), hands-on dad, imaginative woodworker, and occasional golfer. Brett is a Wisconsin native who caught the programming bug in middle school and later earned a BS in Computer Science from UW-Milwaukee. Just for good measure, he also earned a BS in Electrical Engineering from the same university. 

Like many full-stack developers, Brett’s a naturally curious problem-solver who enjoys a good challenge. He holds two patents, which shows you just how innovative his solutions to those challenges can be! He enjoys mentoring new developers and has taught college-level classes in mobile application building. Brett thrives in a collaborative environment and has earned a reputation for driving success on every project he touches. His lengthy list of skills includes C#, SQL, .NET Core, Entity Framework, JavaScript, and many more. 

Brett describes himself as an easygoing, “don’t sweat the small stuff” kind of guy. He doesn’t shy away from being a “nerd,” and while his effusive praise for Pearl Jam might be hard to understand, his enthusiasm for being a dad is not. Brett is an active father who enjoys embarking on adventures large and small with his son. 

Random fact: Brett would like to take his woodworking skills to the next level and build a trebuchet so that he can “chuck stuff down the road.” 

More About Zach

Coming to you from the end of the alphabet, it’s Zach! Zach is an Umbraco pro with several Umbraco certifications under his belt. 

Unlike many members of our team who are native Coloradans, Zach hails from Brooklyn, New York. He grew up behind a keyboard, teaching himself HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. Zach earned an AA degree in graphic design from Kingsborough College. His career started in the print industry; later, he grew into a tech role for a large sporting organization. Soon, he became the primary developer. 

Although the East Coast cast a long shadow over his formative years, Zach decided to go west and settled in Colorado Springs with some roommates. He’ll tell you in no uncertain terms that he's not outdoorsy, but he obliges himself to climb Pike’s Peak once a year like clockwork. 

Zach considers himself to be a creative problem-solver - always a great trait for a developer to have! He thrives on being efficient when getting things done. As a seasoned Umbrician, Zach brings a wealth of knowledge to web projects of all sizes. 

Random fact: Zach embraces his inner geek and enjoys taking part in a weekly Dungeons & Dragons meet-up. He also dedicates some of his spare time to painting Warhammer figurines. 

More About Rachel

Rachel is a tech-savvy jack-of-all-trades with a background in DevOps, QA, Selenium testing, software development, and much more. She prides herself on her ability to contribute to any project team by filling in gaps and leveraging her extensive list of technical skills. 

Rachel holds a BS in Computer Information Technology from Methodist University and an MBA from the University of Denver. She is also a proud Army veteran, having served at several duty stations in the field of intelligence and linguistics. 

Rachel is originally from Kentucky and still has roots (and a cabin rental business) there. She has also lived in North Carolina, Arizona, and California. Rachel has called Denver home since 2011. Like most Coloradans, she enjoys outdoorsy pursuits against the backdrop of the Rockies (minus one incident involving a snowboarding wipe-out). 

As a kid, Rachel wanted to be a professional basketball player when she grew up. She wasn’t too far off with that dream and did end up playing semi-pro. Today, she invests some of her energy and spare time in coaching middle school girls in basketball and tennis. Rachel likes to stay active; she ran two half-marathons and competed in a triathlon. 

Random fact: Rachel speaks fluent Korean thanks to her Army training.

More About Miley

Miley is a Denver native and snow sport enthusiast who has spent most of her career in accounting and administrative roles. She is highly organized and never misses a beat when it comes to the finer points of contracts and other critical business documents. 

When she's not knee-deep in contracts and spreadsheets, Miley enjoys snowboarding and spending time with her cats. 

More About Brett

Brett is a Wisconsin-based .NET Developer whose career has been gaining steam ever since his graduation from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Brett earned two BS degrees: one in Computer Science and one in Philosophy - an accomplishment he considers one of his proudest achievements. His unique academic combination reflects both his technical expertise and his love of critical thinking.

Detail-oriented and naturally curious, Brett has always been drawn to problem-solving. As a kid, he briefly dreamed of becoming a Lego build designer. Like many developers, he was prone to taking things apart to understand how they worked. That same analytical mindset now drives his approach to software development, where he enjoys designing efficient systems, thinking through complex challenges, and building clean, scalable solutions. He also holds a Microsoft Azure Fundamentals certification, further strengthening his cloud development knowledge.

Brett grew up as the oldest of four brothers in a family that valued learning and service - his mother is a veterinarian and his father was a teacher. Brett met his wife, Marissa, while volunteering at a camp for individuals with special needs. The two married a year later, and today Marissa is continuing her education while they build their life together.

Described as ambitious, driven, laid back, and a good listener, Brett balances professional focus with a wide range of interests. He enjoys biking, spending time outdoors, reading, and diving into computer projects. His entertainment tastes range from electronic and power metal music to pop, and he’s a fan of science fiction series like The Expanse.

Random fact: Brett isn’t afraid to embrace his inner geek and enjoys playing Dungeons & Dragons. He sold his wife on the game, and she is now a player as well. 

More About Miguel

Miguel is a Senior Umbraco Master Developer whose blend of technical expertise and creative thinking makes him an invaluable member of the Umbricians team. Originally from the historic town of Montefrío in Granada, Spain, Miguel discovered early on that he was drawn to both art and technology - interests that ultimately led him into web development.

He completed his Higher Technician in Development of Web Applications at IES Francisco Ayala in Granada, a qualification equivalent to a UK Higher National Diploma (HND). In 2015, Miguel moved to the United Kingdom through the European Union's Erasmus Exchange Programme, completing an internship that introduced him to the Umbraco CMS platform. What began as a work placement quickly grew into a career, and he has since become a certified Umbraco Master with deep expertise in building and delivering complex digital solutions.

Known for his strong technical skills, Miguel approaches development with a practical mindset: if something works well, there's no need to reinvent it. At the same time, he enjoys exploring emerging technologies and has a particular interest in the evolving world of AI-driven development.

Miguel describes himself as thoughtful, empathetic, and remarkably consistent. A great listener and natural problem solver, he values deep friendships and long-term relationships, bringing perseverance and consideration to both his work and personal life.

Outside the office, Miguel enjoys traveling with his partner, whom he met back in Spain. A lifelong science fiction enthusiast, you'll often find him reading sci-fi novels or watching classic sci-fi films. His playlists are filled with rock and heavy metal, and he’s been known to pluck the occasional guitar string. 

Random fact: In addition to being fluent in English and Spanish, Miguel speaks a bit of Dutch! 

More About Harper

Harper is a busy Operations Assistant who never shies away from big tasks. She thrives on keeping projects organized, managing multiple priorities, and helping the team (and clients!) succeed. Known for being hardworking, dedicated, and loyal, Harper enjoys creating structure behind the scenes so others can do their best work.

Originally from the East Coast, Harper grew up in New York, spent time in Vermont, and attended Dickinson College in Pennsylvania. She studied Neuroscience and Philosophy. Later, Harper made the move to Colorado with her best friend - a decision she's never regretted. In her opinion, Colorado is simply bigger, better, and the ideal place to embrace the outdoors. The Rockies are a perfect fit for Harper’s health-minded outlook. 

Outside of work, Harper is an avid skier and alpine racing coach, mentoring young athletes as they compete. She also serves on the Board of Trustees at her alma mater, one of her proudest accomplishments. Whether she's skiing, running, hiking, or working out, she feels most at home in the mountains, especially during winter.

Harper describes herself as an "introverted extrovert" who is motivated by being part of a strong team. She enjoys helping others, contributing to shared goals, and supporting the people around her. Friends, family, and skiing are at the center of who she is.

When she's relaxing, you'll likely find her reading historical fiction or mysteries, listening to contemporary musicians, or spending time with loved ones. 

Fun fact: Harper has a strong aversion to cheese in any form. Eat your grilled cheese if you must, but do it elsewhere, please! 

More About Peter

Peter is a New York-born graphic and web designer currently based in Denver, Colorado. With roots as diverse as his skill set, Peter brings a unique perspective to everything he creates - shaped by a rich multicultural upbringing and a relentless drive to build.

Peter was raised in a close-knit family alongside his younger brother. His father, of Japanese heritage and raised in Brazil, worked as a roofer, while his mother, a native of Paraguay, worked as a secretary. That hardworking household left a lasting impression. Peter originally set his sights on becoming a software engineer, but a passion for art took root when he was in high school and eventually steered him toward design. After earning a degree in economics and completing a graphic design internship, he found his calling at the intersection of creativity and strategy.

Peter isn't your typical designer. He approaches his craft from all angles - branding, web, print, and beyond - bringing the same builder's mindset to design that drives his work as a founder and contributor to non-profit initiatives. He seldom takes days off, doesn't shy away from a challenge, and is all but immune to negative feedback. His thick skin and low-key demeanor make him a welcome collaborator on any team or project.

One of his proudest milestones was graduating from college and making the leap from New York to Denver - a move he made alongside his girlfriend, whom he met back home. In Colorado, he's embraced a new chapter, recently adding a dog to the family and spending his free time sightseeing, golfing, gaming, watching sports, and staying close to the people he loves.

Fun fact: Peter is quadrilingual! Thanks to the unique makeup of his family, he's fluent in English, Portuguese, Guarani, and Spanish. 

More About Micah

Micah is part of our Business Development team, where he enjoys building relationships, solving problems, and serving as a trusted partner for clients. His outgoing personality and strong communication skills make connecting with people one of his greatest strengths, and he thrives on creating meaningful, long-term partnerships.

A Wisconsin native, Micah grew up in the Madison area and attended school in Appleton. He enjoys spending his free time improving his home, tackling DIY projects, and gardening. Whether he's fixing something around the house or helping someone solve a challenge, Micah is happiest when he's building and creating.

Outside of work, you'll often find him fishing, hunting, or hiking. His love of fishing runs in the family - his dad operates a salmon charter out of Sheboygan. Micah also enjoys listening to everything from metal to classic "dad rock" and is a fan of Quentin Tarantino films.

Micah and his fiancée, Autumn, met at a bar in Winneconne in a memorable first encounter - with her mom there, too! They share their home with a Lab/Pit Bull mix who keeps life interesting.

Fun fact: Growing up, Micah dreamed of becoming a professional sport bike racer, but today he's focused on helping clients succeed, growing lasting relationships, and maybe planning a future dream trip to Greece.

More About Daniel

Daniel started his life as an “Army brat” who grew up moving from place to place: Italy, Washington State, and Colorado. Later settling into the Rockies, he's been an official Coloradan since 1977, rooted to the high country while holding on to that early habit of adaptation.

He started coding at eleven. The year was 1984, and his family had just brought home their first computer. He was only allowed access during designated hours, so he did what any determined problem-solver does: he wrote software in his head and made it a reality on his next pass at the family computer. That discipline - working through complexity before ever touching the machine - never left him.

Twenty-five years into a career as a full-stack .NET engineer with a heavy focus on agentic AI, Daniel still approaches the work the way he once approached a blank sheet: as an artist. As a kid, he wanted to travel and sell art - realism, portraiture, charcoal and pencil, the kind of work that demands patience and precision. Software development, to him, is the same practice in a different medium: finding a solution where none appears to exist, building something out of nothing. 

Daniel describes himself as curious and persistent. Like many developers, his brain came programmed with dogged determination to find a way through any technical challenge.

When he's not at the keyboard, he's outside. Camping is a long-held passion. Daniel is a proud dad - his journey to fatherhood is one of his proudest achievements. He dotes on his daughter and is thrilled to have a grandson as well.

Fun fact: Daniel has thoughts - seriously considered ones - to live out of a Jeep. He has two cats, a mother and daughter, who may have opinions about this.